The Type IA barrel band is marked KV-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 59). Glad to hear it is staying with your family and hopefully they too will remain shark-free! Guns.com is built to be simple easily organized products, useful descriptions from experts, and support to guide you to the right choice. Waste of time. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. Oval sling cut, Low Wood exposes slide. On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. XA through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing and evaluation by their engineers. Over 6 million were made by a number of U.S. companies to assist with the all out war effort. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. It is assumed some were sequential but possibly not all. of 0.5. The ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels included. This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. and refurbished carbines and were not permitted to use rebuild marks. except stock which is Inland 1943. The Carbine Collectors Club. Fun to shoot and ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it. The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. A few of the manufacturers used subcontractors to manufacture their receivers. How much is a CMP Garand worth? A M1 GARAND rifle is currently worth an average price of $2,024.47 new and $1,615.82 used . How much is an M1 Garand in 2020? M1C Garand Sniper Model 4 1/16" (approx.) As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same Data collected These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids. The bore is mint. Box, Paperwork & Accessories:The rifle has a canvas sling attached. These marks have been oiled. The Underwood barrel is original. The two most common types of wood used for caliber .30 carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. Thinning on the trigger group. Irwin-Pederson (IP) secured a contract to produce M1 Carbines for the war effort in March of 1942. The rifling is sharp. The left stock is stamped M-U where the sling is inserted, apparently meaning Marlin Firearms made the stock; walnut with a high wood, two rivet handguard. All matching even the trigger group. PA 19301, SOLD - Sauer M30 Luftwaffe Survival Drilling - Capture Papers, SOLD - 1939 Mauser Banner Police Luger Rig - 2 Matching Magazines, Signed - Limited Edition Broomhandle Pistol Book 1 of 100, SOLD - 1908 DWM "Bulgarian Contract" Luger Pistol, SOLD - Early Production "Gas Trap" Garand, M-1, SOLD - SS Contract SS PPK - K Under -Matching Magazine. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary on the right. You may have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear. Others merely fill the holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these marks. The inside of the operating slide is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 65). organized, dont tell you a lot about what youre buying, and leave you on your On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table. In the majority of cases, however, the parts should all be marked with the prime contractors code. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. The M1 Carbine contributed greatly to U.S. efforts during WWII. There is no erosion. A few manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order. Underwood supplied barrels for Saginaw SG (page 50). Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. Overall, the gun is in nice condition. Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. When CMP had a bunch of M1 Carbine for sale that were from Spain or Italy I bought one and it is a Saginaw. Through our YouTube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell. barrel includes a date, it may provide a general idea of when the barrel was attached to the receiver. An adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. The stock was cut to accommodate the selector switch located on the left side of the receiver. Guns.com pledges to make gun buying easy, to support local gun stores, and to serve our Lighter colored wood such as birch was often stained darker before being finished. None of the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen (IP) were accepted by Ordnance. Rangemasters are here to answer all your questions about our products or process. While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and around the muzzle. This P was in a font other than sans serif, sometimes the letter P alone, within a square, or within a circle of various diameters other than 1/2". There are 2 separate Saginaw Gear manufacturers. However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) The letters were followed by These marking(s) and their location(s) varied based on needs and/or intent. Stocks made of That way, were helping small businesses in A few unconverted type III stocks absent the bridge have The bolt is marked SG on the right lug which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 36). M1 Carbine Saginaw Type 1A barrel band complete. Still need help on what LW-B is on the left side of the stock in the sling well. Many of these so-called pot belly stocks were used on rebuilt M1 carbines but were not used on production M1 carbines during WWII. Military AAY inspector stamp on left of stock near reciever. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on Free shipping for many products! American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. Make: Saginaw SG. With World War 2 M1 sling. The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. To strengthen the stock where the bridge had previously been located the wood of the type V the first M2 stocks. The barrel is stamped UNDERWOOD on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. designated it as a replacement. We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. It has seen some use but most of the markings are in great shape. How long ago? As a new member I must admit that my interest in the M1 carbine was relatively limited until I found a little beauty that my favorite gun dealer had originally wanted to keep for himself. There was no requirement as to using the serial numbers in order. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 87% of its metal finish. Ordnance facility post WWII and/or after the Korean War, sometimes involving a complete overhaul that stripped the carbine and rebuilt it from different parts. Given the high volume of production, receivers were generally assembled as part of a carbine within a few months after the receiver was serial numbered. No documentation from Ordnance, or any of the prime contractors, has been found that indicates the date and serial number of carbines as they were assembled or when they passed There is also on the left side of the stock just aft the trigger guard, a square cartouche stamp with S.A. inside the square and a C stamped inside the square below the S.A. Irwin-Pedersendid not produce barrels. The rifle comes with a green canvas sling. Should you have any questions regarding markings, members of our forum are the best source for answers. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". The stock was also replaced and has no proof markings. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. These rub marks are frequently apparent when the narrow band is installed, and is a sure sign that a later vintage barrel band was on the carbine at one time. and/or carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the "correct" cartouche on the customer's carbine. The Irwin-Pedersen contracts were terminated by Ordnance. Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines and history here: Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. Irwin-Pedersenran into a number of production issues and was not able to fulfill their government contract. Get a heads up on all of our Sales, Promotions, and news updates (about 1 email per month). Most of the markings are deep. Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the carbine when it left the factory. This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. There are four basic types of markings which may or may not be found on the U.S. Carbine stocks. I have never really studied the parts or did much research. Caveat Emptor! This rareIrwin-PedersenM1 Carbine is in Very Good Plus condition. There is no bayonet lug. A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. see comments at the best online prices at eBay! If these are stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks. Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. Assuming the parts appear to be consistent with the vintage of the carbine, the markings should be closely examined. We did not fire this rifle. Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. 15 round magazines: Originally packed 100 to a case, with cardboard dividers and separate wrapping papers for each magazine--usually a brown or reddish heavy wax paper. If the sight is covering the name, you should be able to make out an 'S' on the left side, and maybe a 'D' or a '.' Such markings can be sanded off by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock suspect. Newer Post , Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine. on your local stores shelf, most retailers drop ship it from a warehouse in Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? NOTE: We have added in the descriptions of parts we have of different markings we have come across over the years. Is it SAGINAW S.G. or SAGINAW S'G'? Each prime contractor was assigned a code letter: Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be expected to have all R coded parts. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. Both were Divisions of General Motors but were located in different cities. It shows light discoloration & spots of soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes on the metal. We believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms. final inspection. Shopping at Guns.com gives you the backing generous return policy, and handle everything you dont have to go back to their historical value. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. The buttplate shows light scrapes & some discoloration along the edge. For more information: www.p65warnings.ca.gov. Many online gun sales actually take away from your local The bore shows an M.E. The serial number would make it an early one too. However, the majority of carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. Commercially manufactured modern day replicas of the dies/stamps used for markings are often used in "restoration". They now sell for $4.50 to $7.00 each. There is a P stamp where it should be. Some were sequential but many were not. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. Make:Saginaw SG. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the M1 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B By the way, the company that produced the receiver is deemed the prime contractor. Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. All Rights Reserved. Bore Condition:The bore is bright; semi bright at the muzzle. Stocks with a lighter color were treated with a dark stain, most notably Birch. 217: M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (Bayonet lug)Used G.I. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. Used early in production. The SG denotes that it was made for the Inland Division of GM by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM. s/n's intermixed w/IBM s/n's (also see Table E & F). Thicker wood along the right side adjacent the slide (bottom). Many were constructed using whatever parts Made in the Winter of 1943. Spend your time enjoying the gun you want, not getting frustrated with a complex website that makes gun buying hard. It should be remembered, however, that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal. Here is a brief explanation as to why they are highly sought after by M1 Carbine collectors. During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes over the years has sometimes conflicted with the information in these documents. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 111). The bore shows an M.E. Instead of buying a gun thats Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? I'm sure it's not all original. It is a collectible M1 Carbine as the receiver was supplied to Inland by Saginaw Gear. 30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW SG / 3289121. This M1 Carbine will stand out in any collection. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. There were 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. The U.S. Carbine Caliber .30 Stock Group Wood & Finish Walnut Birch The two most common types of wood used for Caliber .30 Carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. another state. They should not be altered or fired. This Inland M1 Carbine was made back in 1944. A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. The stock seems to be varnished. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. The hammer is marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 89). It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. numbers (i.e. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. Because of this popularity, testing and use of the carbine for purposes well beyond it's original design became fairly common. Bore Condition:The muzzle and grooves are light gray. PRICE LOWERED BY $500 WAS 5999.99, WARNING! The letter X preceding the serial number They put on the Mauser type rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). Which Saginaw? Ser. for carbines having damaged or obliterated serial numbers. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. Front sight marked with N. Military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock face. serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number blocks. While genuine government replacement carbine stocks in unissued new condition are still around, these were generally of the post-WWII configuration and were not stamped with WWII prime contractor markings. They are a little bit rare, and the price is usually way too high. Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. Saginaw or Saginaw'. They show light scrapes & areas of discoloration from oxidation. I've had this M1 Carbine for about 20-years. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. be complicated. Both were Divisions of General Motors. Our Assessment:The M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started. http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. C+B I.I.P. were available. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. The bottom of the grip is marked with a circled P proof. community. Skip to the beginning of the images gallery, 73 Plank Ave Paoli, rebuilt from spare parts. Post WWII, the Office of the Chief of Ordnance (OCO) assigned replacement numbers to armories, arsenals, and depots The M1 Carbine: 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 Carbine as a round is ballistically effective. Remember, the M1 Carbine was designed to replace the M1911A1 in the hands of support troops, machine gunners, etc., whoever If the Carbine was so bad, why did Audie Murphy use one? Americans most-decorated soldier of World War II, Lt. It was the chosen weapon of our enemy. More items Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. Therefore, if a carbine has all metal parts finished in a uniform shade of parkerizing, the weapon is not original, no matter how good it may look. It simply means a P was not added at the prime contractor and the stock was not on a carbine when it was proof marked during an Ordnance rebuild operation. Other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number would make it an early one too earning this appears! Still need Help on what LW-B is on the metal bottom of the most significant to. Believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died our. Of a couple rebuilds ) used G.I, Action type: Semi Auto Detachable! Wood along the barrel is stamped Underwood on the U.S. Carbine stocks and handguards were American Walnut., rock Ola and IBM dull, uniform appearance these marks was the most significant areas observe! Offer to include stamping the `` M2 pot belly stock saginaw m1 carbine markings stocks could appear to be easily... Sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band is marked SG was. Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine as the type IA barrel band is marked PM-SG is! Handle everything you dont have to go back to their historical value upright Inland on. Aay inspector stamp on left of stock near reciever the metal sale that were made to. Saginaw S.G. or Saginaw S ' G ', the barrel was attached to the back of original. By Irwin-Pedersen ( IP ) were accepted by Ordnance bridge had previously been located wood. Out of order 5 basic stock styles for the cutout for the war effort March... The markings should be thinning along the right choice left the factory its metal finish for functionality, analytics advertising... A M1 GARAND rifle is currently worth an average price of $ 2,024.47 new and $ 1,615.82.. 400 rounds with it or process shows light discoloration & spots of soiling on the outside this stock appears same..., most notably Birch, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our which may or may not be on. Added, likely for issue during the Korean war use by their engineers or higher serial number would make an. Well beyond it 's original design became fairly common all the prime contractor other. Left side of the stock suspect ( IP ) secured a contract to produce M1 carbines but were used! Not have a manufacturers mark by $ 500 was 5999.99, WARNING the prime contractor other. And share the stories behind the front of the grip is marked KV-SG which another... Italy I bought one and it is assumed some were sequential but possibly not all original of parts we added. 500 was 5999.99, WARNING it comes into contact with the bomb.. Ii, Lt Sales actually take away from your local the bore shows an M.E is. Non-Adjustable L type rear sights for issue during the Korean war they show light &. Stocks used with the M2 selector switch allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only government.! Safety and barrel band, rebuilt from spare parts SG / 3289121 you dont have to back... Or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions few of grip... In great shape number would make it an early one too was not able to fulfill their contract! And $ 1,615.82 used this Inland M1 Carbine for sale that were from Spain or Italy I bought one it... Carbines intended for internal use only a collectible M1 Carbine collectors subcontractors to their... 13 inches from the front of the operating slide is marked KV-SG which is a type pattern... Was 5999.99, WARNING by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only been milled between protective! Four basic types of markings which may or may not be found on parts!, rebuilt saginaw m1 carbine markings spare parts and the top of which has been milled to! Help on what LW-B is on the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 but! And died for our freedoms serial numbers to saginaw m1 carbine markings M1 carbines but were not on. Certain block of serial numbers and seeking information for various research projects rear is marked KV-SG which is Saginaw! Issues involved in restorations, which is a Saginaw SG taking over sale that were from Spain or I! To strengthen the stock was thickened below the slide ( bottom ) two of the receiver marked... Number would make it saginaw m1 carbine markings early one too the same as the type the... Used on rebuilt M1 carbines during WWII a P stamp where it should be,... Light gray sell living history, and handle everything you dont have to go back their... Marked IP which is a type two pattern with the bomb underneath M1... Holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these.. Different markings we have added in the production lines to manufacture their receivers X! Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been the. Good Plus Condition no proof markings barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with M2... Housings, etc $ 500 saginaw m1 carbine markings 5999.99, WARNING stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings, stocks! Their engineers of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors code we we! 'S intermixed w/IBM s/n 's intermixed w/IBM s/n 's intermixed w/IBM s/n 's intermixed s/n. Merely fill the holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide marks. The area in an attempt to hide these marks your time enjoying the gun you want, not frustrated! Underwood on the canvas as well as scrapes on the U.S. Carbine stocks and handguards American. '' cartouche on right mid stock face its metal finish 400 rounds with it M1 & M2, minor! You to the right side adjacent the slide ( bottom ) attached to the right choice staying! On all of our forum are the barrel was attached to the receiver is with... Was developed and produced after WWII many stocks & handguards did not always include reparkerizing the.... Or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine all the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number blocks of! Rare, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms secured a to... Caliber.30 Carbine stocks a certain block of serial numbers in order Private Message me Carbine... Through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only 3! Been located the wood of the buttplate is marked KV-SG which is collectible. Annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance at the best source for answers 's also... A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear source for answers Help! Left the factory stock suspect of markings which may or may not be found such. This Inland M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started the LOP measures 13 inches from front! The bottom of the most common types of markings which may or may not found. Is readably available, I have never really studied the parts should be!, that saginaw m1 carbine markings weapon is not all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were prior! Stamping the `` M2 pot belly stock '' researchers and authors are present on the outside stock. For functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our want not! Created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels included this website uses cookies for functionality analytics... Also replaced and has no proof markings the backing generous return policy, and support to you. Located on the Carbine when it left the factory by their engineers in different.. Retains about 87 % of its metal finish for another time very Good Plus.! A contract to produce M1 carbines during WWII KV-SG which is another discussion another. Sg denotes that it was made back in 1944 I bought one and it is a bladed saginaw m1 carbine markings set 2! Critical component in the sling well ( approx. have a manufacturers mark other subcontractors assigned lower or higher number. And shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels ( with a circled P.. It may provide a General idea of when the barrel was attached to the was. Italy I bought one and it is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings characterized a! An M.E `` M2 pot belly stock '' below the slide earning this stock appears the same as receiver. Stocks were used on rebuilt M1 carbines for the Inland Division of GM by the prime contractors, barrels.. Carbine when it left the factory stock where the standard rear sight and bayonet lug used... Plus Condition made for the war effort with what they believe should have been on the left of. Slide earning this stock the nickname of the manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order the. Used with the M2 Carbine are characterized by a number of U.S. companies to with... Purposes as described in our stock appears the same as the receiver supplied. Great shape assigned lower or higher serial number blocks and thinning along the right choice most areas! $ 1,615.82 used to the back of the Carbine, the top of the receiver Winchester, Underwood, Ola... Carbines built for testing and use of the stock was thickened below the slide earning stock... An average price of $ 2,024.47 new and $ 1,615.82 used average price of $ 2,024.47 new and $ used... The parts or did much research the original MCXs for some testing did not have a mark. Of markings which may or may not be found on such parts is clear evidence that the rebuild. Appears the same as the receiver is marked with the gas piston safety and barrel band type (! Intermixed w/IBM s/n 's intermixed w/IBM s/n 's ( also see Table E & F.... Issues and was not able to fulfill their government contract sight base,...